posted
I have been doing my engine break-in quit differently than most im sure, with stellar race winning results. Since most engines " come into their own " after a gallon of fuel, what I do is put the engine on a break-in stand start it and leave it running at a set temperature and RPM until the entire gallon is used up in one shot. This eliminates the uneven wear,piston / cylinder scuff marks, and saves the piston crown from smashing into the tight pinch zone after all the typical cold restarts that happens with the heat cycling method. I usually use white lightning fuel or something else with around 10% oil content and no more than 20% nitro. For white lightning fuel since it is 8% oil being 6% castor and 2% synthetic, I usually boost it up to 10% oil total with maxima castor 927, which is 70% castor and 30% synthetic by weight " the more castor oil the better, especially for break-in". I also make sure that the engine stays at a consistent 230F, to make sure all the parts are fully expanded, because it starts to expand at the point which water boils, around 212F VERY IMPORTANT! This also polishes the piston during the running in to a mirror smooth finish and you will never have a longer lasting, smoother running, more powerful engine. Runs better at idle and holds a tune better and is much more consistent.I feel heat cycling an engine does more damage and uneven wear from all the cold starting sessions and is not even worth doing that way. Only forged pistons need to be heat cycled anyway, and that can still be done, AFTER the entire gallon is used if you wish, because everything will be uniform already at that point. What do you all think, has anyone else done this method before? As far as I know im the only one that thought of it and does it with the best results attainable. Try it; you will thank me later.Also, since this runs the engine in so well and so precise with little or no stress on the conrod or bushings, I do not count the break-in gallon towards the life of the engine.
These are compression engines.The more accurate and even , tight the seal is, the better !
Do your typical heat cycle method and after is done tear down your engine and notice the condition of the piston and cylinder, then do my method and do an engine tear down and see the difference ! Not to mention this will also save your conrod from all the stress of all the cold starting in heat cycling.makes sense to me :0)
I also want to add that the honing marks or crosshatches " the scratches you see in the cylinder when new " also play a vital role in break-in.They act as little razor blades to help further carve the piston to the exact shape of the cylinder " Another reason to make sure you reach operating temp of 212 F or better as quickly as possible ".So the first 15 minutes of run-in are very important because of this.Thats another reason I just let the engine run and not heat cycle it, as starting and stopping would also affect this vital process and cause uneven wear.
[ 20. April 2008, 01:12: Message edited by: lst123 ]
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Would like to know your thoughts on this guys, Rody and everyone else open to debate this.Likes / dislikes about this method ? I don't see how any negatives can come from this method, only positive results.
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this sounds pretty nice, indeed. How long did it take to bring through a whole gallon of fuel?
When using the heat cycling methode then of course you need to preheat the engine again after it cooled down. Doing this you won't have problems or damages. The reason for heat cycling is to bring out the rest of tensions and this is the best "part selection" you can do. The heat cycling methode can also be done on a break-in bench.
So, probably the best way would be to heat cycle the engine first and then completely freeing it by adding your methode.
Thanks for your ideas. Indeed an interesting new way!
[ 17. April 2008, 13:33: Message edited by: Stefan ]
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It does take a few hours to burn through a gallon, but IMHO it's the best method out there.I challenge all of you to try it and see the difference.I refuse to heat cycle the engine UNTIL it has " blueprinted " itself.Even when engines are new from factory, the fit is very close but still not 100% exact.Even if you heat the engine with a heat gun after the cold starts, it's still not the same trust me.Your interupting vital processes every time you shut the engine down during break-in.Heat cycling isn't as important as you think, as opposed to getting the most precise fit of piston to cylinder.No parts will fail from the lack of heat cycling right away at break-in, as long as you take it easy and not wide open throttle.However, I do heat cycle the engine once my break in process is done and the engine is in the car.Then I will run it and shut it off a few times before I go WOT.Think of this method as the engine blueprinting itself to a perfect match, with no interuptions.Any interuptions in the process, especially the first 15 minutes, results in uneven wear.Tear down your engine like I said, and you will see the difference in the conventional methods and my method I'm a damn genius.... LOL
[ 17. April 2008, 17:38: Message edited by: lst123 ]
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Until now I used the RB method and the heat cycle method on a C6-BB and a C6-CC. The BB ran great for 85L until I cut the filter elbow. The CC still runs good - not strong any more but good. But it ran strong for a little over 100L! So that are numbers I guess . But the CC which was broken in with the heat cycling method ran strong longer than the BB with the booklet method.
Back to the topic. Heat cyclinc really is the best part selection if you want and it's very important to be done on forged parts but also on all others as mentioned already.
BTW, the only job of the honing marks which needs to be made in a crossing style and with a certain angle, is to hold the oil film better at the sleeve.
For the break in I use the nitro percentage that I'll also use later but as you said with more castor oil than later (5%/5%). This because castor oil has one big advantage, it fills the pores and stays there. Not so most of the synthetic oils - if not all of them.
[ 18. April 2008, 17:50: Message edited by: Stefan ]
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Interesting and I think is is indeed another way of running-in the engine, a little long though but possible as explained. If it works then it is good to read this experience.
posted
I will explain everything a little more clearer and debunk some of these myths. First off, I want to say I am NOT an engine manufacturer, and I am not saying the engine manufacturer is wrong with the break-in method they recommend and use. I’m only saying i have tried everything and have done visual inspection and performance inspection and have found a new and improved way to run-in a competition engine. First off, heat cycling of components is definitely not more important than the right fit of components. Secondly, the honing marks are not just there to hold oil, and the honing marks should disappear after the first gallon if you ran the engine in correctly. The honing marks are there to "HELP" hold more oil between the piston and cylinder "DURING" the run-in process. In addition, these microscopic scratches are very Sharp for the first few minutes of run-in before the sharp edges round themselves off. This is part of the run-in process because if you run-in the engine at the proper operating temperature, it helps shave the piston to make an exact fit with the cylinder. However, this only happens up to the 15 minute running in mark. Thats why it is important to get the piston to expand to the correct size ASAP to take advantage of this. It only takes me less than a minute to get up to the temp I need, if it takes you 5 minutes to get to 230F then forget it, you have wasted this critical part of break-in. If you get the piston to expand the proper way, as I said, these marks will wear away to leave behind the smooth polished chrome cylinder. Thirdly, that is not the most important aspect of castor oil you mentioned. First off is the strength of the film it provides, second is the fact that synthetics when exposed to high temps, the film will break and move away from the hot spot, but castor oil is instead ATTRACTED to this hot spot and will travel to it to protect it and not break ** ESTER based synthetics also do this action, but not to the same degree as the castor **. In addition, the ability of castor oil to carry a load is superior. Synthetic oils are inferior to castor and should only be added in a small percentage to act as a detergent to keep the engine from gumming up from the castor. I want at least 70% castor by weight in my fuel, anything less is less protection and more wear. Synthetic is really only added for it's ability to keep the engine clean in these small engines. Dirt bikes and the like are very different with conventional two stroke oils. These engines need more castor oil, and less synthetic, plain and simple. If your mixing 50% this and 50% that, you are keeping the engine clean, but protecting it less. Some engine manufacturers say to run the engine in, with fuel pouring out of the pipe and at 180F, But that was the conventional way of thinking.Because the piston only just starts to expand @ 212F, doesn't mean it has fully expanded until it cannot go any further in the cylinder * not sure at what temp the brass cylinder expands *. I get it to higher temps because the top portion of the piston may have expanded far enough, because of the tight pinch zone fit.... but have you thought about the piston skirt area and if this has reached a temp where it will be completely pressed tight against the cylinder wall, like the upper portion of the piston already is? It doesn’t! Get it up to 230F or a little more. I don't even need to be there to tear these engines down that were broken in these ways, to know what your seeing and looking at. After your first gallon is consumed, what your looking at, is the top of the piston and the pinch zone are polished in appearance, but the honing marks still exist, and the rest of the piston from the crown down to the skirt appears DULL. This should tell you something, about how even you just wore in the piston and cylinder ! After I break in an engine, the honing marks have all but completely vanished, not just from the pinch zone area, but all the way down to the bottom of the cylinder. When im done breaking in an engine this way, the piston has NO dull areas, and is completely polished and looks like polished aluminum, almost like chrome, from the crown all the way down to the skirt area. Very even and uniform with no unevenness or deformities. Now, which one do you think has a better seal ? Which one do you think will have better suction and compression action on the upstroke ? Not the one that still has dull spots of course ! Put a collection tray under your stinger, most of the little metal bits are from the shaving of the piston " if you allow it to expand to the right tolerances like it should be", and will go away after the honing marks have vanished. Thats why I use fuel with less oil, too much oil has a compression effect between the piston and cylinder wall, besides the more fuel than oil will help wash the engine during this process and allow the oil to take the metal shavings out of the exhaust, Instead of more oil just circulation the metal bits around the engine and causing scratches. Those of you, who want to see what I mean, but don't want to wait the whole gallon, can do it another way. With cheap engines, all this can happen up to a half-gallon is all it takes. But with novarossi, RB and sirio engines it takes 3 quarts to a gallon, But you will see the temps start to drop when it's close to ready, then you can stop and do your heat cycle. Just run the engine and the temps will stay in one place, then somewhere between a half gallon and 3/4 of a gallon, the temps will start to go down, not aggressively, but you will see the temps drop 5 degrees or more and you can stop there if you want. This is what i do:
Put the engine in the break-in stand. Some say in break in stand not to use air filter because a straight filter will contact the fan, WRONG, always use air filter, just get an air filter with a 90 degree elbow and put it on and turn it away from the fan.
Next, get a sheet of thick tin foil and make it wide enough to cover fins from top to bottom and fold it to have 3 or 4 layers thick of foil. Rubber band at the top of heatsink and bottom to hold it there.
******* You can use a heat gun here to make this get up to temp easier and faster, and also to try to prevent any stress from getting to the conrod and pinch zone for the very first start.If you use a heat gun, get the engine up to a minimum of 212F before you start it *******
Start the engine and get it past 212F as quickly as possible. DO NOT lean it too much from the factory setting to get there. Instead, if it seems like it is not getting to temp fast enough, blip the throttle and increase rpms until you hit the right temperature and then lower rpms until you can stablelize the temperature. This has to be at temperature ASAP; hopefully you can get it there in less than a minute the first time you do this. You do this once and you will have it down pat and be able to get it up to temp in about 30 seconds, the sooner the better. I don't go to high with the rpms, maybe 5000 to 10,000 after the temperature stays where it should and the mixture adjustment is right.
The foil is there so you don't have to go to lean to get it up to temperature or keep it there, so instead of running it in at lean 230F degrees, you will be running at rich 230F degrees.
Then just let it run and keep an eye on it for awhile to make sure it stays consistent temperature. After the half gallon somewhere you will start to see that after the temps have been staying consistent, that they will start to go down, you can stop here if you want and put the engine in the car and heat cycle it and vary the rpms ETC for a few tanks. If you want to go the whole gallon, when you start to see the temps drop DON'T let them, and instead of leaning the mixture to keep them where you have them, just increase the rpms slowly, till it gets there and stays there again and keep doing that.
Then you are done.
It's sounds long winded, until after you do it the first time.
I do it this way, because after i do it this way, the way the engine wore in, compared to other methods, tells me this method is better. It is visual when you take the engine apart, what separates this method from the rest, and right and wrong.
Benefits are better throttle response, better suction, and compression action of the piston. Alot less friction then a dull piston and cylinder from the honing marks and instead of that you get more horsepower and smoother faster rpms. More accurate and consistent carburetor settings and they stay there. Much longer engine life, because instead of the dull aluminum piston, or the dull cylinder from the honing marks that should have vanished after the first gallon.... now instead you have a mirror smooth piston riding against the mirror smooth chrome cylinder, with a sheet of oil in between.
Again, I will put my money on the table for this.
The challenge is to run your engine in, the way you normally do, and after you consume a gallon of fuel tear it down. Then take a spare brand new engine you have and run it in as I explained, after the gallon is consumed, tear that engine down and if you have done it exactly as I said, you will see many positive differences the way the internals of the engine look and everything looks even and uniform, which will be a perfect seal. You will never go back to the heat cycling method again. I want to reiterate: which is better after a gallon of fuel is used? a piston that wore unevenly and still has dull spots and a cylinder that has honing marks still on certain spots of the cylinder ? On the other hand, both being uniform around the entire area and mirror smooth?
Simple, yet highly effective, just takes a little longer that’s all. People that earn a living racing may want to try this at least once and compare results.
Forgot to mention: These rpm's should happen @ 1/4 throttle or a little more.this means the low end needle, should be out of the spraybar enough so you only have to mess with the main needle for this process.
Also: An onboard temp monitor type that has digital constant readout is best for this.Just use your infrared temp gun type to check the accuracy of the onboard temp monitor and see if its accurate, it usually is within a few degrees.
[ 21. April 2008, 16:05: Message edited by: lst123 ]
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Ok. It's proven by all world-leading lubrication companies that their synthetic oils are WAY BETTER in EVERY aspect than the castor oils BUT not in the one thing mentioned above. As for the honing marks, that's right, they will disappear on those nitro engines which is no problem in this case. If you don't have those marks on 4-stroke engines (no model 4-stroke engines that run on mixture), then you are in trouble. I got all these superior lifespans from the two engines with Tornado fuel (7% synthetic and 2% castor). So we have different opinions on that. But in general I will stay with the knowledge I was tought during three years as a motor mechanic at a very sportive German car manufacturer and later on during my studium to become a mechanical engineer. But I will give it a try on one of my next engines and compare the results. Again thanks for that topic, lst123!
[ 19. April 2008, 10:34: Message edited by: Stefan ]
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I don't want to turn helpful information into argument or flames.So i will leave it at this as far as oils and fuel for these small engines are concerned.The BEST synthetic out there created by scientists has a wear rating of 8, which means some wear to the engine.The best degummed racing castor oil out there has a wear rating of 10, which means virtually no wear ! This is the only reason it is safe to use fuels with low oil content like i do, simply because they have more castor than synthetic in the lubrication package.All other fuels with more oil content, that being 12%, 14%, 18% Etc. have either 100% synthetic in the mix, or the primary lubricant in those fuels is synthetic.This is why you need so much oil in those fuels, as compared to the small amount needed of a quality castor oil, to do the same or a better job of lubricating and protecting a high revving, high temp engine.
The life you got from your engines with that mix, try RB concept fuel with more castor than synthetic and see if you might get more life from that engine, providing it was run-in in a good way as described above.
[Quote from stefan] If you don't have those marks on 4-stroke engines (no model 4-stroke engines that run on mixture), then you are in trouble.
Why would you need crosshatching on a 4 cycle engine ? when the job of the oil ring is to hold the lubricant to the cylinder during travel ?
Also, yes as far a 4 cycle automobils, yes synthetic is far better than conventional oils.But for these small engines we are running, your primary lubricant should allways be a good quality, degummed castor.Rody thinks the same way about castor oil.for these engines the castor is what you want most of, but for cars, yes, definatly synthetic is better, your right.
[ 19. April 2008, 10:44: Message edited by: lst123 ]
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Yes, I also don't want to judge over opinions. As said, I'll use your method the next time and will see.
To tell the whole story of why you need the honing on the real 4-stroke engines would lead too far and is nothing for that topic. But to make it short, you can believe me, they are needed there. On 4-stroke engines they play a combined role with those different designed piston rings on each piston (in general three different designs on each piston) that need to be mounted in the correct order.
[ 19. April 2008, 10:49: Message edited by: Stefan ]
posted
Again, this information you say, probably applies to automobiles.Because 4 stroke motorcycles, usually have 2 compression rings, with the oil ring being in between those and without the need for honing.you must be talking about cars.no problem, back to topic.
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I was meaning all 4-stroke engines and I said in general. And also that the whole story is too much for telling under this topic. But to give a little taste, there are eight main designs for piston rings. Also there are bike engines and bike engines. This all depends on the aspired performance of the engine and reliability under this performance ... and the costs, of course.
[ 19. April 2008, 11:44: Message edited by: Stefan ]
posted
This is a sweet idea for break in. I've allways had good luck with airplane engines but my 1st try with an AE .28 didn't go so well.
Its hard to break in the engine by the manufacturers instructions if the car dies before it gets hot. 180-190. All the repeat starts kill the piston.
I'm going to try this as soon as I get my replacement engine. AE has a turn in plan for old engines.
I'm going to try it in a Hudy engine run in stand. I'll wrap the cooling fins with aluminum tape so she heats up quick. I found a little airplane air filter that should clear the fan/ propeller thing. Instead of buying an onroad header. I found a silicone 45 degee connector. that should alow me to angle my offroad pipe away from the Hudy fan gard.
Just get her up to 230 and maintain that with the throttle for a gallon. Can do!
It makes sense. Every airplane i've broken in has ran perfect. Then again an airplane is esentially a break in stand with wings! LOL. Seriously when was the last time you saw someone with a troublesome airplane engine. Yet cars are allways getting thier engines ruined during break in.
Should work for cars as well.
As soon as I learn to tune cars as well as planes with this engine I plan on upgrading to one of the Rb engine pipe combos. Right now I'll try to learn break in and tuning with the cheap engine that came with my kit.
Do you think its ok to use this procedure with O'donnel 20 percent. Everyone at my track uses O'd 20 or 30. Some use the Traxxas stuff as well.
I figure if O'd is what everyones running and its easilly available thats what I'll use. It deosn't say what lube is in the fuel on my bottle. Must be a secret blend LOL!
Thanks for the great idea. We'll see how it goes. Might take a few weeks to get my engine back though.
Posts: 12 | From: Florida | Registered: Apr 2008
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Hello, Zerodefect.Not too sure about the proprietary odonnelube oil package or which formula you plan to use.But their race formula is 12% oil content im pretty sure.Trinity monster horsepower, the purple fuel has 12% oil with castor oil in it.Not sure of how much castor they put in their mix, but I know the brand of castor mixed in trinity fuel is klotz BeNol castor oil, which is one of the best castor oils to use.Have to be comfortable with low oil content fuel though for that and the odonnell race blend.High oil content above 12% has the compression effect between piston and cylinder as stated above.You can use any fuel or fuel oil content your comfortable with for this break-in method.But you may not get these polishing effects with fuel with a high oil content.Still, no matter what you use, this method will break it in nice and even the way it should be.I never go above 12% oil content fuels and usually use 8% oil and add a few ounces to a gallon to boost it up to 10% to do this break-in method.You have to know how to tune and be comfortable with that oil content though.But, like I said with the method as explained, you can use whatever your comfortable with and this method will work well anyway.I just have not tried it yet with high oil content fuel to see what the results would be.
[ 21. April 2008, 04:18: Message edited by: lst123 ]
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How many engines have you broke in with this method, and how long was the life? How many engines have you broke in with another method and how long was the life? How long have you been into High Performance nitro racing engines ?
Do you not think an engine with the standard break in then the rest of the fuel to equal a gallon would not produce the same results? You stated try your method vs. heat cycle method and compare internals, but your internals have 3/4 more of a gallon ran through them...
Take no offense to these questions, I feel they are legitimate...
I have broke in 2 motors on my own and another motor with help (my first .12). 1 was a .12, 2 was my new WS7 L2G and before I break in my new C6 L2G with what sounds like possibly a good method, I figured I ask the questions above.
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About 4 engines so far with this method, because my engines run strong past 10 gallons, I am not constantly replacing them, so no need to constantly be running in a new engine.Whereas with other methods, your engine may still run at 8 or 10 gallons, but it has lost all it's power.I have had nitro engines, since the early 1980's, where some cars did not have steering or a remote control and would be on the end of a string and only go in a big circle.No, after running in the engines with the 2 different methods is used, like i said with the other after the gallon is consumed there is a big difference on how the internals look and how it runs and idles after that amount total of fuel has been run through each engine.So basically what I was trying to say is, with each individual engine and break-in method, after a total of 1 gallon has been run in each, to see what the differences are, and my method has allways produced better results, and you can tell a difference of the condition of the internals that it is a positive change.You may completely lose pinch after 1 gallon total is consumed with the other methods, but not with mine.But your individual results may vary because I don't know what fuel you use or what your experience level is.The engine will run "strong" though through it's entire lifespan this way though, if you do it right, instead of you noticing it has lost much of it's power and needs to be rebuilt at that point.
The fact that more fuel total is run through with my method is not the main difference though.The main difference with my method is stressing how important it is to do the run in process at the proper temp.Aluminum "starts" to expand @ 212F, this i know for sure, the brass cylinder im guessing will expand at either the same temp, or somewhere around it.If you run in your engine too cold " like most do " what your not realizing is neither component has expanded properly and with the WOT, Tempering, or what other method is out there that is done at low temps, what your doing is slamming into the pinch zone and changing the shape of the piston crown, and the bottom of the piston slaps around in the cylinder.You can tell this, by looking at your engines internals after you have run it in and also the piston slapping makes an audible sound while the engine is running.My way is only stressing the importance you must get up to temp and keep it there, where other methods really don't care what temp, but you will see the damage it has just done by running it in @ temps below 212F.Also, running it in below 200F like 180F or 190F like most are doing, this also seems to have an effect of stretching the pinch zone out like it has expanded, but it has not expanded from the proper temps.So if you stretch your pinch zone, while rounding off your piston crown, what do you think is going to happen when you finally get the engine to proper temp ? now that you stretched the pinch zone, you now need to repinch your engine and have not even used a gallon of fuel yet in your car.Brass is considered a soft metal and will stretch, and this has a hard chrome metal coating applied.Do you want to stretch your pinch zone out during run-in and then have it stretch more when you finally get it up to proper temp ? Of course not.All this is what makes the difference.
As far as me choosing to run a total of 1 gallon through my engines, before I even bother to put them in the car, this is just a decision I made because I know the engine has completely loosened up with this amount of fuel.And if I use less fuel before the process is done and run it in the car, that every time I run it after that is going to result in some kind of uneven wear.
[ 21. April 2008, 16:18: Message edited by: lst123 ]
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So your not revving past 10,000 on the bench at all? I thought it was important to break the engine in with higher RPM also to acclimate the engine to somewhat normal running RPM's.
The breakin I use on a bench is..
Wrap head in foil Preheat to 200 degrees Aprox. idle 1 tank to keep at least 200deg. 10,000 1 tank trying for 200 to+ 10 for all tanks 12,000 1 tank 14,000 1 tank 16,000 1 tank 18,000 1 tank 20,000 2 tank 2 tanks in car to race tune.
I learned from a 1/8 onroad racer since the 80's. My tuning level is about 6-7 from 1-10. I started nitro onroad mid last summer with 200mm sedan and now including 1/8 buggy and truggy as soon as I get my new kits.
I think I'll try your method but maybe revving to 20,000 towards the end of the gallon. What do you think?
Thanks for the reply.
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The engine does not care about how high in the rpm you go for running in.I may go past 10,000 rpm to get the heat up, but I do not go near half of the rpm level the engine is capable of.The reason some say to go to high rpm for the wide open throttle method of run-in or the others, is they are running so blubbery rich and cold that even though they have the throttle fully open, the engine is way too rich to reach high rpm.But there is no range of rpm's the engine needs to " get used to " the rest falls into place when you put your engine in your car and start running it normally.If your worried about this, you can allways do 1 tank in-car with varying rpm's.But the engine does not need to get used to anything, it just needs to be run-in properly and will do the rest later.I also think the engine should be tempered or heat cycled before reaching half the rpm the engine is capable of or full rpm of the motor, this is the only concern.So don't worry about the engine getting used to anything, just run it in and then temper it " heat cycle " a few times before you go all out with it in your vehicle.No engine cares about getting used to any rpm's to function properly, not any two cycle or four cycle engine for that matter, being it a car, boat, plane or cycle.In fact for most things they tell you to stay with low rpm's during running in and not to even go half of total rpm's the engine can do.The engine again will get used to these varying rpm's when the process is done and it is in car.No damage will be done, I can promise you that.Unless a part was weak or defective from factory, which can of course happen.It's not like if you stay low rpm and then put it in car and go high rpm something will be damaged, but you may damage something going high rpm during run-in and before you temper the engine.Just remember to do some tempering before you go all out, and you will be fine.nothing else matters to the engine.All these things you hear are myths from 20 years ago and conventional ways of thinking.Engines have changed since then and we have learned through experiences, research and testing that all this is not true.
[ 21. April 2008, 16:37: Message edited by: lst123 ]
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This is great info. I found some fuel that might meet your requirements.
I found some Morgan Coolpower sidewinder 20% nitro with 10% oil. Morgan fuel also claims to use more/better castor oil as well.
Deos this sound like a good find? Then go back to a higher oil% fuel after the 1 gallon run in. Say 12-16% oil and 20% nitro?
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If you have used before low oil content fuel and you feel comfortable running this, then it is good.But I stay with the fuel I used for run-in for the life of the engine.I personally do not go near fuels that have 14, 16, 18 or 20% oil.Most of these are 100% synthetic oil fuels, thats why so much oil is needed.I use a fuel with mostly castor in it and hopefully an ester based synthetic and will never go above 12% oil fuel, even for just backyard bashing.Running in the engine this way and at proper temp will give you your long engine life, having more oil in your fuel will not do this, especially if the engine was not run in properly.This is not a motocross bike that only reaches less than 20,000 rpm's and runs less hot then these engines, so we need quality castor oil because of higher temps and rpm's past 30,000 and up.In a motocross bike that does less than 20,000 rpm's a straight synthetic oil even mixed lean is sufficiant.These small engines are different though.I have never used morgan, coolpower or sidewinder.Only trinity, wildcat and white lightning fuel I have used so far since being into the hobby.I won't use o'donnell because I need to know exactly what is in the fuel im using, and most do not tell you this information.I also know of a web site that has a tool to let you add oil and tell you how much nitro and methanol you will have remaining after you add and will give you exact amounts.But you have to know what oils you can mix and put togeather, because some will not blend with others. nitrorc.com go to the Custom Fuel Blending Workshop section to check this out.But if you don't know what kinds of oils are in certain fuel blends, then you cannot add anything because the oils might not agree with eachother.If you use trinity the red fuel or the others, I know they use klotz castor and synthetic oils, so you would be able to add more castor if you like, but it will lower your nitro and methanol percentage a little bit.Most have found the right fuel that they do not need to do this, but this is something I do for personal preference.Maxima castor 927 is probably the best 2 stroke oil out there to use and has a flash point of 420F which is nowhere near the temp these engines get to, so the protection is excellant and it blends perfectly with white lightning because they both use grade AAA degummed castor and an ester based synthetic, so I know their compatible.I have tested my mix in a nitro engine getting as hot as 316F, yes thats right, 316F and the engine was fine, It did however eventually flame out and stall though, but did not seize or have abnormal wear or any other damages.And remember the fuel I use is only 10% oil total, so this was an amazing feat.Most engines would have seized or otherwise blown up at that high temp.
[ 21. April 2008, 17:14: Message edited by: lst123 ]
Posts: 58 | Registered: Aug 2007
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Ok, I didn't know it was ok to run as low as 10% oil during a race. I'll probally break in with the cool power so that I have only the proper 10 %.
I might use the trinity 12% oil 20% nitro after break in. Seems the current fad is more oil content in the fuel. I've seen 14 even 16%. Thats quite a bit LOL. They have to leave some room for the fuel part right!
Then again the Morgan cool power has a 12/20 as well.
What I do know for sure is blending the fuel myself isn't going to happen. Every recipe I blend ends up tasting like garlic! Thats probally a bit beyond me right now. I'll see what I can learn on that site though. Thanks.
I'd imagine lower oil content would help the engine run and idle better. More fuel to burn less oil to push through. The engine only needs so much lube right.
I really like the simpicity of this breakin technique. Particularly once the piston and sleeve are "blueprinted" we can still heat cycle and gently run in the engine on the track with less concern of botching the breakin due to stalling at low temp.
Do you know what temp ranges are normal for most engines (.21)after break in. I've heard 220-260 is ok for track use.
Posts: 12 | From: Florida | Registered: Apr 2008
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I just received horrible news that white lightning fuel was recently discontinued, looks like I will be switching to trinity red, which is blended for trinity by wildcat fuels.I don't think i have even seen RB Concept fuel around here.Everyone has a different opinion about engine temps.For me I guess I would choose 230F minimum and 250F max.All depends though, 4 wheel drive monster trucks like the LST especially in short grass run hotter past 250F usually.Light weight 200MM touring cars on a smooth track it is probably possible to keep the temps below 250F.
More oil in the fuel making the engine last longer is still a myth, If you know how to tune.
Making the engine last longer can come in many ways other than thinking high oil content will do it for you.Engine is like everything else, you get out, what you put in.I hear people say not to reuse your foam air filter because even if you think you got it clean and all the dirt out, that there will allways be dirt trapped that did not get out that you can't see.So they say instead of clean to replace every time.I guess that would help engine life.Also using a heat gun to get the engine past 200F everytime before you start it will also benefit the engine.But not many are willing to do that except mabe for racing.Who carries a heat gun with them when they go bashing on the weekend at your favorite spot ? probably not too many people.But all these things other than oil content will preserve the pinch and life of the engine I guess, if your willing to give your engine a little more TLC, it will return the favor by lasting longer.
Posts: 58 | Registered: Aug 2007
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Yes, wildcat allthough not popular to many people, is actually a great fuel.Those who use all of the trinity fuels might not know, but wildcat fuels is the one who makes the fuel for trinity, just with a trinity label.It's very good and I would trust the eliminator pro race 10% oil fuel they have definatly, especially good for racing.If your not a beginner and you could tune the engine properly.Note that the eliminator is the only fuel they make specifically for cars though, all the others you see on the site are for boats or planes.
[ 21. April 2008, 19:17: Message edited by: lst123 ]
Posts: 58 | Registered: Aug 2007
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The moral of the story here students, Is if you want your engine to last a long time and run strong through it's entire life span, is to try to use a fuel with more castor oil than synthetic, and also running-in the engine as close to the temps it will normally be run at in the car as possible and also keep up on the air filter.This is break-in NT :0)
Posts: 58 | Registered: Aug 2007
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Ok sounds like we have a winner: Wildcat Elminator pro race 20%nitro/10%oil.
Its actually a couple bucks more than the Trinity stuff. Found a dozen different types of Trinity fuel .
I was able to tune my engine ok. It just didn't do well during break in as per the manufacturers instructions. I'll keep it rich once its in the car to be safe and get some help from some of the other drivers. This is for an AE RC8.
Next time I'm useing your technique in a Hudy engine stand.
I was interested in temps because I found a failsafe temp gauge that turns on the failsafe at a set temp. Could prove useful set to 260. Tune the car for 230-245.
I've got a heat gun from airplane covering so I'll try that to preheat the engine. We have electric at the track so thats not a problem.
RC8 air filters are cheap so I'll get more of those and just toss them. I usually oil the filter with red Ofna Filter oil. I put it on the outside then wring the airfilter until its colored evenly.
Posts: 12 | From: Florida | Registered: Apr 2008
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I don't know who makes that team associated engine, but like other engines that come with vehicles stock like the losi mach engines, it will probably be ready at the half gallon mark.Watch for the temp drop around the half gallon point, then you can put the engine in your car and vary the rpms a little and heat cycle it.the temp drop means it's ready.on cheaper engines this comes sooner than other high quality racing engines.
[ 21. April 2008, 19:30: Message edited by: lst123 ]
Posts: 58 | Registered: Aug 2007
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As far as White Lightning goes it has been discontinued for a little while now. Probably NOS they've been selling. Blue Thunder is the replacement and is what I run, HP8 is 8% oil, 6%castor and 2%synthetic.
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It does take a few hours to burn through a gallon, but IMHO it's the best method out there.I challenge all of you to try it and see the difference.I refuse to heat cycle the engine UNTIL it has " blueprinted " itself.Even when engines are new from factory, the fit is very close but still not 100% exact.Even if you heat the engine with a heat gun after the cold starts, it's still not the same trust me.Your interupting vital processes every time you shut the engine down during break-in.Heat cycling isn't as important as you think, as opposed to getting the most precise fit of piston to cylinder.No parts will fail from the lack of heat cycling right away at break-in, as long as you take it easy and not wide open throttle.However, I do heat cycle the engine once my break in process is done and the engine is in the car.Then I will run it and shut it off a few times before I go WOT.Think of this method as the engine blueprinting itself to a perfect match, with no interuptions.Any interuptions in the process, especially the first 15 minutes, results in uneven wear.Tear down your engine like I said, and you will see the difference in the conventional methods and my method ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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. But the CC which was broken in with the heat cycling method ran strong longer than the BB with the booklet method.![[Confused]](confused.gif)